Post by juliangibraltar on Jul 26, 2014 6:01:04 GMT -5
Hi again, here are some shots of the first cheater coat on the bottom. As per my question above....is it worth doing another coat or just wait until my cloth arrives?
On the photo you can see there is quite a lot of "pooling" which i didnt pick up when I laid it down (with a roller) but I also think this is happening because the surface is honestly not very even and this is sort of making it so.....(that was part of my plan actually!!) Should I sand this all down so that there is no pooling or can I leave it are hope the next coat will be fairer? I understand I need to sand this with 120 grit to key it for the next laminate coat, no?
The second photo is the resin i had left (it looks more transparent on the board but it went very hot and hard in 25 minutes, too hot to hold! and once it started it solidified really fast!), I mixed 500g total and used about half of this....did I not leave enough on the actual board, did I roller it all off? On the board, where its drier it really doesnt seem like there is any resin at all....perhaps absorbed it completely.....so many questions!!!
The pooling could be minor hollows, difference in the wood grain also causes hard and soft spots which will either absorb the resin quicker and leave a matt finish and harder areas a shiny finish. A cheater coat is nothing more than a sealer to stop using so much resin the second time around and making life easier when applying the cloth. No need for a second coat just put one on the bottom and leave the board for a few days, unless you have the cloth ready then 24 hrs will be enough. Sometimes it may be a little sticky and maybe even waxy, in any event I would suggest you rub it down with wet and dry on a pad with plenty of water and a drop of 'fairy' added. 120 grit will be fine if you need it finer then just rub 2 dry pieces together for a few seconds. Don't be tempted to do it without wrapping the wet and dry around a sanding pad with a firm foam bottom if you use it in your hand you will not get a flat finish and may well get ridges from your fingers etc. This applies even more so especially after the hot coat. Of course you can do the edges without the pad but don't spend too long in one place otherwise you will cut through on the high point of the radius. You can make pads from old style mouse mats, a block of wood and some contact adhesive if you want.
I always do it by hand because you can 'feel' if the paper is still cutting and also if it's still a bit rough.
Hope this helps. Looking good by the way and you are certainly on the home straight.
Post by juliangibraltar on Jul 28, 2014 3:49:36 GMT -5
Thanks Tim, I'll be following your advice on the wet and dry and try and think of it as a hard paint rather than some amorphous monster! I'll also be prepping some sanding (mouse) pads while waiting for the cloth, fin and leash plug. My plan is to do the next 2 layers in succession, that is, the Lam coat and then while still tacky do the top coat to avoid any sanding in-between.
Once this is done on one side I'll remove the tape "skirt", flip over and do the same on the other side. Then go for polish etc.
My question here is....should I make the fin box and leash plug holes now, after the cheater coat or wait until the Top coat? I have come across too different versions. My preference would be to do it after the cheater coat and then cover with suitable tape so that I can do the next couple of coats in succession and go for the chemical bonding.
Finally, and I'm going to ask Blair directly also (as I know he did the same thing) in terms of the hand hole I have already made on the top....when laying the laminate cloth, should I just let the resin all dry and harden and then cut into the handle and sand or should I cut the cloth before spreading the lam coat and push the cloth into the handle....?
Heres a rather boring pic of the top of the board with the cheater coat as I know an image is more fun anyway!
I accept your question was directed to Blair but the usual method is to glass over, then cut when dry or semi-dry with a sharp stanley blade. If you cut first then you will have a devil of a job keeping the cloth aligned as it will undoubtedly move and even stretch a little when you pull off the excess resin. I don't know if you have already given the inside of the handle a coat of resin! Anway if not then this can be done anytime you have a drop left over.
Re fin box and leash plug either way I guess is acceptable. All I can say is that when you resin in the box and the plug you will have to clean up around the area anyway. This usually involves sanding and you will then need to touch up with resin again anyway.
Post by juliangibraltar on Aug 2, 2014 0:00:13 GMT -5
1974 thanks....you have no idea!! I hope to recieve the last pieces of the build on Monday or Tuesday so hope to get it finished by next weekend!!!!!
Tim, thanks for the insight on the handle etc. Blair did say the same thing which is reassuring! Ive wet & dried the first layer of resin and I think I'll go with putting in the fin box and leash plug now and then taping over them before moving onto the Lam coat and hot coat. In the end regarding the UV protection I am getting hold of some UV additive from the resin vendor (which is taking time because now we're in August and in Spain everything pretty much closes! Once I get that I'll mix it in and then do both coats on the same day, dry, flip over, repeat, buff and launch!!
I would be interested in knowing the brand of resin you are going to use. I want to look into other OEM's and not just West Systems. Their 207 hardener is really slow and gives you plenty of time to work with which is a bonus but other resins are a little thinner which is also a bonus in colder climates like the UK.
Think you might need 2 or even 3 lam coats if you are to avoid cutting into the cloth when you sand it smooth. You can always put 1 lam coat on give the board a try (and hey you and I know that you are just dying to do that, right!) then give it a light rub down and 1 or 2 more coats. I know you have done a lot of research but have you seen the Orca Boat vids on youtube there is a whole series on a SUP build
Post by juliangibraltar on Aug 2, 2014 12:24:44 GMT -5
Tim the resin I'm using is a locally made resin from Seville, I wouldn't really recommend it although theres nothing really wrong with it but it doesnt have any UV inhibitor and frankly the sales rep wasnt that helpful in explaining its application. It givers me 25 minutes to work and then instantly starts turning! I'll see how it works on this board as it is more convenient to buy here but as I mentioned in a previous post it has been made very clear that this sort of build in Spain and possibly in the UK is not a well catered for as in the US so I would highly recommend an online source for all requirements. I've found this one in the south of France who seem to be very efficient and I'm buying their cloth, fin, box and some odds and sods but next time I will buy their Resine...see photo attached. It is a very good price, (especially in euros with the sterling exchange rate!) and they give me some confidence in that they know what they're doing. They do post to UK but not sure if they can with resin?
RE Orca videos yup, been there done that! and I've got loads more in my bookmark bar, the problem I find is that they all do it slightly different or dont give you the full instructions but hell, as Blair said.....this is for fun and once she's on the water you wont bother with all the things you worried about before. I think you're right about the number of coats. I will probably do at least 3 more either side. I'm still not too clear on the finish...I will just do a final coat, without tape and be careful not to get any drips? I'm a bit confused on the sanding and then polishing...with what? I've decided not to use a varnish but simply finish with a resin coat and if it looks ok then why sand it...and if I sand it do I need something else to polish it again....its never ending!!
Bought some denatured alcohol today or methylated spirits or actually something that is similar but not quite the same...just to clean up after sanding! Exciting eh!
Post by juliangibraltar on Aug 9, 2014 2:37:36 GMT -5
OK team, I have a couple of resin questions now...com on team, get off your boards and back in front of a computer
I've done the cheater, dried and sanded. Laid the cloth and given it 2 coats of resin while tacky. Now i was going to turn over and do the other side but frankly the cover on the last coat is not brilliant and there is still a lot of weave visible. My questions are:
1. Can I gently sand the coat with the weave showing to cut it and do another lam coat? As in is it ok to gently sand the weave?
2. Can anyone with some resin knowledge tell me whether my resin is too thin and really it should have covered the 6oz weave with the lam coat and one more. Also I've only used about 330g (11.6oz) of resin mix with some left over...it seems very little and thin compared to other people who have used around 750g?
Post by juliangibraltar on Aug 10, 2014 14:27:20 GMT -5
OK quick update.... First picture is the 3rd coat (Lam coat, another coat and then another coat) and beginning to look glossy!!! Then I cut away all the cloth and tape and drilled out the fin box space. Remembered to level out the fin area and placed the fin box with fin to see how vertical it was...pretty good I think!
After this I'll turn her over, do the Lam plus 2 more coats, drill for the leash plug then sand and final gloss coat!!!!
Re the number of filler coats: you might not be putting enough on, the secret is as thick a film as possible without it sagging. The temperature in Gib may make this difficult so you will just have to keep coating until the weave is completely covered (filled) and then another 2 coats before you sand because in my opinion I don't think you will ever get a good enough finish with a resin coat to just leave it. I always roll and then tip out with a sponge disposable brush but have always had to sand smooth. At some stage you will have to rub down and protect with, varnish or laquer as the UV additive is unlikely to totally protect the resin.
Here is an extract from West System instructions:
. "207 Special Coating Hardener is formulated for use with WEST SYSTEM 105 Resin for coating applications where an extremely clear finish is desired. This hardener also provides excellent adhesion for bonding applications. 207 contains an ultraviolet inhibitor to protect the 105/207 mix against sunlight. However, the cured epoxy surface still requires long-term UV protection with a quality marine paint or a UV filtered two part varnish"
I assume that this will be the same for UV additives - I have never heard of an epoxy resin that does not require protecting when cured but there is always a first!
As I said earlier you could play with the board for a few months and then finish it off in the Gibraltar winter. If you do that then just don't leave it on the beach in the sun without covering it up for any length of time. Hope this helps.
Post by juliangibraltar on Aug 14, 2014 7:42:40 GMT -5
Thanks Tim, I think the show through is a combination of my technique and the fact that the bottom of the board was not as "flat" (well made) as it should have been.
The deck which I have now Laminated plus 1 coat only has come out a hell of a lot better, almost full weave coverage. The deck definitely had an overall better finish on the wood to begin with and this shows!
I placed the leash plug and removed all tape last night.
My plan now is to give the deck a sand and a 3rd coat....I shall tape along the apex of the rail this time.
Once that is dry I shall give it one last sand on both sides and finish with an Epoxy Finish coat....no tape on the rails (we'll see how the "join" comes out?).
I will then also spray some Monster paint grip onto the middle section.
At a later date - as in, after Ive fully enjoyed it for the summer - I will review and possibly redo the finish coat with a UV 2 Part Varnish.
Post by juliangibraltar on Aug 20, 2014 12:57:14 GMT -5
OK....finished and used over the weekend (and drew much appreciation from passer by's!!) After 9 months she's done!!
Final work...Cheater coat, Lam coat, plus 3 other coats. The last coat was epoxy resin and actually quite surprised at the glassy finish....I got too impatient to go varnish etc. and as Blair and Timbo inferred "just do it" and I can come back to it later as required. For the grip I used Monster paint and also pleasantly surprised, I thought it would be too abrasive (from falling off so much) but its really more than good enough for my uses.
One small but possibly important point......way back as I tried to remove the "V" shape from the bottom and make it a straighter bottom I cut a fair bit off the bottom of the spine, all the way along. I think this did 2 things which I believe changed the design quite a lot (and not for the better, I have ruined a perfect design, sorry Chad!) With this cutting I essentially reduced the rocker on the nose so now you really need to stand back in any kind of surf or wave situation or she will nose dive and the 2nd thing is I think it reduced the overall volume and flotation of the board and with my substantial 250lbs she does sit low in the water. Having said that I am having a ball with her, getting used to her now during my 2 week vacation, and actually with practice I find that in 3 days I can manoeuvre pretty ok and now am looking for some little waves to test her out.
All in all a fabulous journey, thanks to all who got involved, helped, motivated and recommended stuff! Here's a few photos of her......I think I need a bigger car!
Looking really good Julian. I bet you are very proud of the end product and only too pleased to have some fun for the rest of the season. Has she who must be obeyed had a paddle yet - just to make sure you get the thumbs up for the next one!!
Interesting about the volume and body position to stop the nose digging in. I'm around the 220lb mark on a good day but decided at the start to make it 105% of the original. Not a lot bigger but hopefully enough to give that wee bit extra volume.
So now you have 90% finished, broken the shampoo over the bow and launched it would be nice to have a list of "lessons learnt". What would not do again and what you would do differently next time. Ranging from wood selection and build process through to glassing. I'm sure others would appreciate it.
Anyway, great job, make the most of it and have a fun for the next couple of months before it gets too cold.
Post by juliangibraltar on Aug 23, 2014 13:29:12 GMT -5
Thanks Tim, I am finally enjoying her and enjoying all the appreciation from my friends who were getting bored with my updates and didnt think it would ever get finished! She that must be obeyed has had a lot of fun on it BUT I'm still pondering over the next "her" build...basically its a weight thing. It really does either take 2 to get it to the water and back on the car or it takes it out of me to do it myself...it does make you think about going for a "quick" spin on her when you think about the effort. My biggest learning are probably about how to make her much much lighter.....to do this I would consider the following: 1. Consider the spine from 15mm to 10mm (the overall strength with the wood and glassing is more than strong enough) 2. SOmething as basic as my splint on the butt joint on the spine was also made of 15mm pieces so for 8 inches of spine I had 45mm thickness. 3. Consider choosing a lighter wood for decking etc. Mine was pine but I believe Cedar is lighter (but expensive to find out here) or perhaps Balsa and make it with shorter strips with a butt joint over a rib. 4. My fin box was also too wide....mea culpa for not measuring properly!
The real learnings for my next one are really from a complete novice to this kind of build:
1. Took a long time to start for fear of making a mistake - just start it and it can all be fixed! 2. Definitely invest in a good bench saw (mine broke in the end) and most definitely you need a thickness planer (unless you get the lumber yard to cut for you) as my planks were in no way perfectly lined up and this would have made the3 sanding and the glassing better. 3. I would go for the option of strip by strip, while it takes longer it means you get a good bond and you dont need so many weights to place on the board. 4. Definitely go for the smaller rail triangles, using 8....and not forgetting Blair's blocks!!! 5. Dont be too worried about the glassing...this was tghe first big job I did and honestly it seemed to go on fine....watch a lot of videos, read a lot of methods but essentially its pretty straight forward. Of course if you want a perfect gloss and super smooth finish you may need to sand more and add more layers. 6. My final thought (from my personal reality) is to get all the material in one go (perhaps wait for the glassing material)...and cut it all also.....this makes the build much smoother and a hell of a lot quicker!!! Because of cost in SPain I had to wait for payday a few times and this is a pain.
Regards the nose and dip my board has the following Rocker:
Nose is 4 1/4" Tail is 3 1/2" Not too bad actually but I imagine if I hadnt cut the spine it would be more. Havent tried ot on a wave yet so will come back when I do. I'll also come back on the weight...I reckon its about 30kilos / 66lbs!!!!