timbo
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by timbo on Mar 2, 2014 19:03:32 GMT -5
Hi there in sunny Gib! My name is Tim and although currently in Florida on holiday I intend to build this SUP, having just bought the plans on eBay, when I return. I have built a 17ft strip wood kayak about 18 months ago and the principle is pretty similar. So as far as I can see and indeed have read so far, lots of people are having problems with their glue up, strips cracking especially after ‘soaking’ to make them pliable, etc. Well, first thing is that all your ribs need to make a ‘fair’ shape/curve and you can check this using a flexible lath running it front to back and adjusting the ribs up or down or by shaving a bit off here and there. It you don’t do this then your decks, top or bottom, will follow the ribs and be wavy and some will stress and crack when they dry. Sometimes this unevenness can be sanded out but generally not and will really show after the varnish coat. I will lay the decks using the individual strip method, it takes a little longer but it’s easier and there should be no cracking, lifting or separating, etc. Second, I will be using Titebond 111, not gap filling but a proper woodworking glue. The strips certainly won’t come apart it used properly, it’s stronger than the wood that’s for sure just as it says on the can. It’s also waterproof. Most glue failures are due to people not clamping quick enough and the glue kexceeding it’s open time. Fundamentally starting to cure and not penetrating the wood surface enough. Prior preparation is key. Make sure you have carried out a dry fit including clamping and everything is to hand before you start gluing. I could go on for ages but if you want a really good insight then grab a beer and read all the shop tips here, www.laughingloon.com/shop.tips.html including those stapleless stripping and glassing. When you’ve done that then read it again, notice the hot blower bending method too. All these tips work trust me and below is the result of my efforts. Not difficult just be patient and think it through the end result will be worth it. In the meantime good luck. By the way what do you do in Gib, I used to go there with the RAF several years ago.
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Post by juliangibraltar on Mar 4, 2014 3:23:45 GMT -5
Tim hi, thanks for the web link, absolutely excellent information and innovative ideas on getting the best finishes. I will certainly try the heater to bend the rails as this seems to be where all the horror stories come from! Quick question though, if you use the heater method can you heat and glue as you go along or heat and clamp and then glue once its dried in the shape?....ignore if its on the weblink as havent had a chance to read it thoroughly yet. Also he talks about specific wood for this method and cedar being the best but presumably this works well also on good pine.
Life in Gib is excellent, came home a couple of years back after working around europe and glad to be back, work for a local import business with a lot of time to get on the water! My wife's father is ex meteorologist for the RAF and we met when stationed here 18 years ago!
I'm looking forward to seeing your build pictures when you start, some of the best builds I've seen are from cedar strip canoe builders!
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timbo
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by timbo on Mar 4, 2014 13:26:46 GMT -5
Ok here we go. The most important thing is to find the straightest grained wood you can find for the rails and knot free. Then cut to the smallest size, I.e. use 8 per side and not 4. You may have to use a combination of steaming and a good heat gun clamping and bending as you go. As the rails are triangular I would steam for half an hour or so first. Steamer boxes are really easy to make with a piece of pipe attached to a wallpaper stripper or kettle etc. Plenty of examples on google don't forget to vent the top of the pip a bit though to let the pressure out. Once you are happy then bend and clamp as quick as you can using the heat gun too at the tightest twists and radii. Once happy let it set for while then clamp and glue don't be afraid to use the gun again to tweak it if you need to. Practice first, don't hold the gun on one spot cover an area of about 6 inches either side the tightest bend radius with most of the heat applied to the outside which has to stretch. Keep the pressure on, not too much or it will snap, after a while you will feel the wood "give" when it does try and over bend slightly if possible, clamp and move on. Like I said try it on a scrap piece about 3 feet long held in a vice keep the pressure and heat on until you experience the "give" Steaming is far far superior to soaking, dyor. Hope this helps.
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Post by juliangibraltar on Mar 29, 2014 5:43:02 GMT -5
Hi all, Tim thanks for the bending input, in the end I went for straight soaking for a few days as I had the time and the bed was fine. Yes, I'm working on 8 rails per side as there's no way I was geared up for the 4 per side!! My problem is not in the bending and the first 2 rails, one on each side went on no problem....I thought this is going too well!! When I placed the second rail it was a lot more complicated in terms of clamping as the angles are all wrong to get the clamps to tighten as theres nothing to secure the clamp to at the correct angle...nevertheless I managed the first "second" rail with a lot of huffing and puffing BUT..........this morning I went to place the second rail on the other side and there was no way this was going to work, the rail was sliding all over the place, the clamps were sliding and eventually after trying everything I could think of (while the Gorilla glue was beginning to set, no pressure!!) I just ripped it off and figured I'd clean it up, have a think and start again another time...... My question is whether there is any7one with some clever and simple clamping tips that might help other than have a row of friends physically holding it in place for a couple of hours One thought I had was to somehow clamp' a long piece of timber under the board near the rail edge and this might make enough of an anchor to get the angle right...but it seems a bit extreme... Any thoughts would be very appreciated as I'm running out of hair to pull out!! Thanks Here's a few pics of the first rail going on beautifully...nice3 angles to clamp with! and my simple piping to wet the rails..
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timbo
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by timbo on Mar 29, 2014 16:31:08 GMT -5
Hi Julian First it's all looking good and I'm glad the first rails went on well. Ok there are various ways you could try, if you look at the shop tips for the strip wood kayak you will see that Rob Mac uses hot melt glue a lot to hold the strips while the glue is drying. The reason he does this is so he can then glue and put on as many strips as he wants at any one particular time. Clearly if each stip was clamped to the next he would have to wait until the glue dried before he could put on the next one. I used this method on mine although at first I was a bit worried about how I would get the glue off etc but as Rob says a quick sharp pull with a scraper at the right angle and off come the blobs quite easily. Why am I mentioning this, well you can use hot melt glue (for wood as there are various types some not quite as strong as others) to glue say 1 inch strips across the ribs to use as anchors for your clamps. Leave them for a few minutes to set and hey presto. When you have finished just take a hammer and hit them reasonably hard and the glue will break. Any bits of glue left can be scraped off. You could also put the rail strip in position and clamp the middle section for say 3 feet where it is reasonably flat. The clamps and glue are unlikely to slide as there will not be too much of a curve and therefore less stress. Once you are happy then hot melt glue the strip to the ribs by just blobbing (good technical term!!) and also add a few blobs on the outside joining the edge of the new rail strip to the one you already have in place. A blob every 4 inches should be fine. Again after a minute or two you should be able to continue to clamp from the middle to the ends without the strip moving. Also consider placing strips of wood, say 2 x 1, through adjacent lightening holes to attach the clamps to. Again you may be able to thread a piece through several ribs or use short pieces whatever works best. So in short, hot melt glue blocks anywhere you want to at the correct angle to take your clamps, hot melt the new strip in the middle to hold and stop it sliding, slip wood though the lightening holes to assist with clamping or inevitably a combination of everything. Good luck I'm sure it will turn out fine. You will also find that the hot melt glue gun and sticks will be an absolute bonus for all sorts of projects in the future and worth its weight in gold. Assuming you haven't got one of course. By the way, my Christian name is Julian but when I joined the RAF the boys started to call me Tim which is the middle bit of my surname Mortimer because they thought Julian was too posh to shout across the Hangar floor! Anyway that was a long long time ago and it stuck, the only person who calls me julian now is my elder sister.
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timbo
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by timbo on Mar 29, 2014 16:44:03 GMT -5
I forgot to ask is that Mk1 in the background or a second one for she who must be obeyed!
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Post by juliangibraltar on Mar 30, 2014 12:27:38 GMT -5
Hi Tim/Julian, thanks for the various options...my wife has a glue gun actually (she makes jewellery) so I might pinch that but also like the 2x1 across the lightening holes....hopefully wont break them with the pull! I'm away on business at the mo so will collect ideas this week for when I'm back this weekend...the rails are soaking all week so definitely should be easier with less pressure to clamp against. Its curious but in all the forum photos which I have scoured time and again I cannot find any photos of anyone doing this "second" rail for inspiration. The one behind is in fact mine, but decided to stop as the bottom is "V" shaped (from the plans) and I panicked trying to make the bottom fit to it with shims....I didn't think the bottom I'd cut was "strong" enough to take the bending pressure....so I decided to go ahead with "the one who must be obeyed's" one..to do my wife's I recut the ribs so that the bottom was flat across making it easier to fit BUT what I forgot to take into account was the the spine was then too fat at the bottom so had to cut some away which was not easy or precise but seemed to work and definitely made it easier to attach the bottom to...I thought I'd use the learnings on my wife's to make sure mine was a little easier and perhaps a bit more solid! I know what you mean about Julian being a bit posh sounding but I would have thought in the RAF it would have been perfect what with all the "chocs away" and whatnot.....perhaps I've seen the Dam Busters too many times Thanks again!
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timbo
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by timbo on Mar 30, 2014 20:21:02 GMT -5
Best of luck and let me know how you get on. It looks like we are the only ones left on the forum so if you want an easier form of contact then use tim@closefield.freeserve.co.uk.
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blair
New Member
Posts: 30
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Post by blair on Apr 1, 2014 14:10:34 GMT -5
Hi Julian, to help hold the later rails I cut blocks with either a 45 degree or 90 degree cut out of them to use depending on how each rail sits. Make sure you put a bit of wax paper or similar under them to stop them sticking to the rails.
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Post by juliangibraltar on Apr 2, 2014 2:24:49 GMT -5
Hi Blair, many thanks for the input, it does in fact seem quite straight forward with your explanation....and of course being totally reusable means the next one will be done in no time! Some great simple tricks of the trade to add to my repertoire!!
I'll be posting some more pics next week when I'm back in action.
Thank
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1974
Full Member
Posts: 131
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Post by 1974 on Apr 3, 2014 12:47:41 GMT -5
Excellent idea on the cut blocks for clamping. That would have saved some time.
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Post by juliangibraltar on Apr 7, 2014 10:59:36 GMT -5
Thanks Tim and Blair for the tricks on clamping the damn rails.....Blair, I went with your version as I had some spare blocks of wood around and in no time at all I had some 90º and 45º cuts in them......boy did that change my life! Other than gluing one half rail on the wrong way and only just managing to take it off before the glue stuck it I found the whole process with these clamping blocks an absolute breeze.....hopefully move forward much quicker now....thanks guys! By the way I used some cling film to stop the glue sticking to the block....not sure if it worked or I was lucky!
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blair
New Member
Posts: 30
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Post by blair on Apr 7, 2014 15:16:12 GMT -5
Hi Julian, good to hear that things are going easier with the rails. One thing I noticed in your picture was that you had done a lot of work on the rails on one side but not the other, not sure if it makes a difference but I put on one rail on one side then switch to the other side just so things are even and a twist doesn't occur from having all that tension on one side. As I said not even sure if that could happen but just a thought.
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1974
Full Member
Posts: 131
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Post by 1974 on Apr 7, 2014 20:45:16 GMT -5
Looking really good!
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timbo
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by timbo on Apr 8, 2014 10:34:57 GMT -5
Well done Julian it's looking good now. As I have yet to build my SUP and only made the Georgian Bay strip wood kayak it was a bit difficult to totally understand the issues. Anyway solved now and I will certainly add "Blair's Blocks" to the list of useful hints etc. By the way there are some really good vids on youtube on glassing if you are not already and expert. They just underline the do's and don'ts explained in Rob Mack's shop tips and more importantly provide a visual. www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsupx-IXOzU Nick Schlade does a good series of them. I have to say that after making the Kayak which looked really great it sat in my workshop for sometime before I had the balls to start fibreglassing. In the end it turned out to be quite easy, isn't that always the way! I will be interested to see how much your SUP weighs bothbefore glassing and after! I can't wait to get started but it probably won't be until June - ah well just have to keep reading the forums and learning. Take care and don't forget to keep posting the photos.
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